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Autor:  José Roberto
E-mail:  josezambon@merconet.com.br
Data:  17/DEZ/2002 1:32 PM
Assunto:  Re: the strange case of 'had had'
 
Mensagem:  Caro Pat Brown Such things happen in languages, for instance in French one has to use (nous nous...) in order to say (nós nos...) or even in Portuguese in this example: "se se analisar cuidadosamente" (if one analyses carefuly....the first "se" indicates possibility like "if" and the second "se" indicates the generic third person in Portuguese -- actually it's hard to point out the right terminology--). The past perfect (had had) is used to express something that had occured before another event in the past, but sometimes can be translated as past simple in Portuguese...but it's in fact kind of strange :) in Portuguese "the carpenter and the captain had had to ponder deeply-" becomes: O carpinteiro e o capitão haviam tido que ponderar bastante. (haviam tido or tinham tido= had had) You can use the "mais-que-perfeito" but that construction is only used in literature and it's somehow rare in nowadays Portuguese O carpinteiro e o capitão tiveram que ponderar bastante. (tiveram is the past simple and the mais-que-perfeito look the singular form and that would be the most natural translation for the phrase.) O carpinteiro tivera que ponderar bastante. (ele tivera= he had had). but in the day-by-day usage the past simple or the past perfect is more stilystic than a fundamental tool for the English language construction. Sorry if it turned to be too grammatical. José Roberto.


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 English Made in Brazil -- English, Portuguese, & contrastive linguistics
the strange case of 'had had'  –  pat brown  17/DEZ/2002, 11:21 AM
 Re: the strange case of 'had had'  –  José Roberto  17/DEZ/2002, 1:32 PM
Re: the strange case of 'had had'  –  pat brown  18/DEZ/2002, 11:08 AM
Re: the strange case of 'had had'  –  José Roberto  18/DEZ/2002, 2:33 PM

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